Bello identifies Rubin Carter
& John Artis as the gunmen

Complete Transcript

Tape-Recorded Oct. 16, 1966
Police Headquarters, Wayne, NJ.

Carter's description of Bello tape is contradicted by transcript. 1975 news story

Why Bello waited four months to identify Carter. Police report.

Related graphics

PORTIONS ARE IN REALAUDIO

You will need the new RealPlayer to hear these files. Go to this page to download a FREE player. You'll find the "free" version at the bottom of the page; it says "Real Player 7 Basic."

Part I: It's not the best quality, but listen for the key phrase: "I thought that I had seen this one man, I thought it was Rubin Carter." Listen with RealPlayer (3 min, 27 sec)

Part II: Bello says, "When the police came back with 'em he [Carter] was dressed the same way an' everything. You know what I mean? So in my mind I know it had to be him. It was the same person I had seen come around the corner." Listen with RealPlayer. (2 min, 49 sec) Click here for a partial transcript.

Bello Identifies Carter's Car: Police apprehended Carter and brought him to the Lafayette Grill just 30 minutes after the murders, Bello recognized "the same car an' the same people I saw" earlier -- the getaway car and the gunmen. DeSimone is recapping here, which is why he is making statements. Listen with RealPlayer. (29 sec)


KEY

  • D: Detective Lt. Vincent J. DeSimone, Passaic County Prosecutor's Office
  • MOHL: Paterson Detective Robert Mohl
  • B: Alfred Bello, eyewitness


Carter and his people have claimed that this tape shows DeSimone making deals with Bello in exchange for identifying Carter and Artis as the murderers. You can decide for yourself whether that was the case, or whether DeSimone was offering to do what he could to keep Bello safe from any harm that might result from his testimony.

Before this interview, Bello had told his story twice: to Paterson Detective LaConte a week earlier in a bar, and later that day to LaConte's boss, Detective Sergeant Robert Mohl. LaConte and Mohl then took him up to the county level and Lt. DeSimone.

Bello was not aware that he was being taped. This unedited transcript has been re-typed from a copy prepared by the prosecutor's office in the 1970s. Minor spelling errors have been corrected.

This is believed to be the first time the complete text has been published. Many thanks to the good friend who typed it for me!

-- Cal Deal [E-mail your comments]


BEGINNING OF TRANSCRIPT

I'm gonna bring in lunch.

O.K.

You want me to get you anything to eat, Vince?

D: Huh, umm, maybe later.

Later.

D: Um humm. Lets see how long we'll be here.

Well, if you startin' to aver-run into 2 hours. I'll interrupt you.

D: Right. Here he comes now. See if you can get this thing over for me.

You got everything now. Hi.

Hi. How ya doin?

Good morning.

D: What's your first name?

Al

Al

D: Al Bello, huh.

You remember him Vince.

D: Yeah.

(Let me take the handcuffs an' we'll get going.)

O.K. (unintelligible)

Yeah, hang on. It's warm in the room.........air conditioner

Unintelligible

Give me the ash tray there.

All right. You all sit then.

Thanks Vin. Give me a call.

D: Yeah. Thanks a lot (Seig)


B: Thanks


B: Uhh, Vince, uhh I guess it's only right that I-just so you know that Al spoke to us prior and uh I told him I'd be goin' to bat for him, the whole bit an' uh-like I told Al before there's nothin' like-bein' that you're on a county level you want to hear it straight from the horses mouth an' uh-anytime you're ready I guess Al'll start.

D: All right. Al, you're, you're so, your're down here. Is it Alfred?

B: Alfred.

D: You're name is Alfred-do you have a middle name?

B: Patrick

D: Patrick Bello. B-E-L-L-O. Is that correct?

B: (Yes)

D: Now you know my name is Lt. Vincent DeSimone. You know Det. LeConte and Det. Mohl from Paterson. How old are you Al?

B: Twenty-three.

D: Twenty-three, twenty-three. You know I'm a little hard of hearing so speak up.

B: Oh yeah - twenty-three.

D: An' your date of birth?

B: Twenty-sixth November 1943

D: November nineteen?

B: No, November tw-uh twenty-sixth

D: November 26, 1943

B: Right

D: That means this November, this year (physically), this November you'll be 23. You're really 22 now.

B: No. 24 this November.

D: This November you'd be 24.

B: What is (unintelligible)

D: '43 your date of birth, 43.

B: The 26 day, November

B: Yeah. That's right.

He'll be 24 this November

B: He'll be 24

D: Now where you livin' Al?

B: 138 Redwood Avenue

D: 138 Redwood Avenue in Paterson. Wha'da ya have a room there an you livin' with someone?

B: Parents

D: (unintelligible) You were livin' in Clifton weren't you at last time we spoke to you?

B: Yes.

D: Now, right now you're on parole-when is your parole time?

B: 1970

D: 1970 an' who is your parole officer?

B: Mr. Bailey

D: Uh, is this a white man?

B: Colored

D: You see, why I ask you this Al, I'm interested in your welfare. Now let me say this an' this is one of the main reasons we're at Wayne today an' not in Paterson. You follow me?

B: Yes

D: You can understand that we coulda talked to you at Paterson but we're not talkin' to you at Paterson for a specific reason. Now, I understand you have some information for us. Now let me say this at the outset. I'm interested in one thing, Al, an' that's the truth. Now if I get the truth from you, an' not the truth to make me happy, what really is the truth, you follow me?

B: Yeah

D: I guarantee you, in return, I will do everything possible to protect you. This is, should be an indication to you that this is the first step. You understand what I mean?

B: No.

D: I assure you that is you have any fears an' I've heard rumors that you've been threatened, that we will do everything possible to protect you an' we guarantee you protection up until the time that you testify. Now, following your testimony to further protect you, I can make no definite promises, but I will do everything within my power, to go so far as to have your parole transferred to another state. I understand that you have a desire to try to make a new start somewhere else. Is that correct?

B: Yes

D: Now, let me say this to you. Do you have any relatives in any foreign state, in any other state? Or any people?

B: Just in uh, Pennsylvania and New York

D: In Pennsylvania and New York

B: Yeah

D: Uh, do you think that it could be arranged, even before we start talkin', see I mean I wanna impress you with my sincerity. You understand what I mean?- that these people would take you under their wing an'....

B: Yeah sure oh, well uh, what I was wonderin' uh, if there isn't any way that I could maybe get my parole dropped or somethin'.

D: Well, that I can't promise, In other words, I'm takin' this a step at a time. See what I mean? In other words now like I say, you notice I even asked you whether your parole officer was white or colored. There's a reason for askin' this because I understand that you have fear. You understand what I mean? Of the colored people an' their supposed movement where they're strictly for the colored. You understand what I mean? That was my reason for askin' you that.

B: Yeah

D: Hear me now, I assure you I will go to the top people in the state of New Jersey. I promise you this.

MOHL: Al what he's saying really too is he's not gonna make you a promise that he can't-like I could make you a certain promise. I could tell you we're gonna go to bat for you. Now it's on a county level an' he's gonna go to bat for you. It's hard to transfer. He can practically guarantee this right off, so he's telling you just as far as he can go right now. Give me a chance to go further-if there's any chance he will.

D: Now let me say this, let me say this to you. If you are telling the truth. In other words I don't want no bullshit. You understand what I mean? In other words tryin' to help Al Bello if-I'll try to help Al Bello if Al Bello is sincere an' honest with me. Now let's talk a little bit about some of the facts just roughly.

B: Yeah

D: For example, even forgetting what you saw, I'm talkin' about the other possible approaches as far as you're concerned. You understand what I mean? For example, if you were in the area for the possibility of pulling a burglary, there's no evidence that we have of any burglary, even if it were an attempted burglary. You understand what I mean?

B: Yeah. I understand.

D: There would be nothing done on that. This I can assure you. Even if it went so far that I had to go before the grand jury an' tell 'em the true facts. You understand what I mean? An' then dismiss without no-you understand what I mean?

B: Yeah.

D: Let's assume it did exist. Have no fears about this because, look it isn't a case of dealing but it's just common sense. When you're dealing with a murder, particularly with a murder that involves three people sitting there minding their own business, any normal human being will say whether they be on the grand jury, whether they be on the peti jury, they be on any jury. You understand what I mean?

B: Yes

D: Hey, forget that, that's unimportant. We're not no persecutors lookin' to pick on every little thing. You understand what I mean? Now, uh, I want the complete, total truth. Now, I recall, I recall that at the time when we first questioned you, you mentioned Rubin Carter specifically. You said Rubin Carter was the boy. Now, however, you yourself will admit that at times you were evasive an' then the question come up-an' I'm sincere, I'm levelin' with you.

B: Yeah

D: The question come up of the money out of the register. You understand what I mean? An' this is what pulled us poles apart. But Al, I just try to do my job to the best of my ability. You understand what I mean?

B: Yeah, I can understand `at.

D: Now you gotta understand that when you're doin' a job, sometimes you get carried away. I'm not apologizing. This is the way I do my job.

B: Yeah, yeah I know.

D: You talk to any of the boys, any of the boys even down in prison. Whether it be in Trenton, whether it be Bordentown. An' you ask 'em about DeSimone. You know what the word that comes out of this is? Rough, but right. I don't bullshit. If I tell you I'm gonna do somethin', I do it. I'm not an easy guy. You understand what I mean?

B: Yeah

D: But I'm right because I live by the good book. Now, this particular crime that we're talking about - you remember the day, you've probably been living it in your mind, if what you say is the truth, since the day of the crime. This particular crime occurred on June 17, 1966 about 2:30 a.m. Now Bob, what day of the week was June 17th?

B: I think it's a Friday.

B: Friday
Friday morning

MOHL: Friday morning

Thursday Night, Friday morning

B: That's right it was Friday morning because it was the, I think the night before was the riot that Thursday.

D: Friday morning June 17. Now just so we understand one another as we go along I show you first a diagram of streets in the city of Paterson. Now this is East 18th Street running up here. This is Laffeyette St. running down here. This is marked-Avenue. But this was East 16th St. Now on this corner was the tavern. At this corner up here-you understand this diagram?

B: Yeah, I understand

D: At this corner up here, ehh, which is the southeast corner of Laffeyette St. an' East 16th St., is the firehouse. Is that clear? On this whole block there's a big long mill that runs from East 18th St. to 16th St. along 10th Avenue. You understand this diagram?

B: Yeah, roughly.

D: Now in this corner is a grey house. On this corner is a long grey mill. You recognize that? Bob, do you have those photographs you showed me?

All right. Here we go. This the block....

B: Now here this...

D: This is the block we're talkin we're talkin' about...

MOHL: ....I made this yesterday

D: ....now this is a sketch of the block....

B: Yeah

D: ...showin East 18th St. runnin' north, East 16th St. is runnin' north, Lafeyette St. is runnin ` east and west an' Franklin St. is runnin' east and west. Now on uh

-Transmission-

D: ...uh north-west corner of East 18th St. an' Laffeyette St. is the Laffeyette Grill. As you come down travelling west on Lafeyette St. you can when you reach the corner of East 16th St. there's a lone house there. This is the plant along side

MOHL: ____________the house an' here's the plant

D: This is the plant along side of the house which is on the north-east corner of Lafeyette St. an' East 18th St. Now this is the plant here. In other words, this photograph is taken from here lookin' this way. Now behind that is...

MOHL: That's the alley on the other side (unintelligible)

D: ...other alley, an' then there's this building here which is a lawn mower, Caola'sLawn Mower place. You familiar with that? An' the fire house is over here. Do you understand Al? Is that correct? All right now suppose you tell me in your own words nice an' slowly an' clearly what your actions were on that Thursday night or early Friday morning. In other words, when you first came into that area, who you were with, an' what ...everythin' completely to the best of your ability. All right, uh, you just take your time, nice an' to the best of your ability. All right, uh, you just take your time, nice an' slow.

B: See uh, Dexter Bradley...

D: Yes

B: ...Kenny Kellog....

D: Kenny, wh-ha, how's that Kenny, Kenny Keller?

B: I, I, I, came down with Kellog.

Kellog

D: Kenny Kellog. Yes.

B: and myself.

D: Yes

B: Parked our car on, uh, the next block over, Franklin St.

D: Yes. In other words that's over in here.

B: Yes

D: Parked our car on, uh, the next block over, Franklin St.

D: Yes. In other words that's over in here.

B: Yes

D: Right.

B: Parked our car on Franklin in about the middle of the block.

D: On Franklin between East 18th an' East of East 16th
Yeah

-Transmission in background-

Yes

B: An'uh, we got outta the car and uh, Bradley an' myself got outta the car.

D: Right

B: We were gonna do a "B" an' "E".

D: Yes.:

-Transmission in background-

B: On the corner of ehh__________right over here.

D: In other words in this plant.

MOHL: Just point it on this photo

D: In this plant

B: ____right behind this bush here

MOHL: See this bush here

D: There's a bush behind the door on the East 16th each side, the southerly side of this plant where Det. Mohl just put an "x".

B: Yeah

D: In other words you were gonna try to get into this plant.

B: Yes

D: All right. Then what happened.

B: Well uh, Dexter Bradley says, uh, I'll go in an' you stay on the corner an' watch for the police.

D: An' you were gonna stand on the corner of East 16th and Lafeyette St.

B: Yes

D: All right here. All right.

B: As I was standin' there, first, I, uh, I walked across the street. There's a soda machine there across the street.

D: Yeah

B: An' got a can of soda

D: Yeah

B: I was drinkin' the soda an' then uh, I, I walked across the street

D: Yeah

B: Then I was stanin' there

D: Yes, on the, on the same corner

B: Yes

D: All right. Then what happened?

-Transmission in background-

B: A car, I seen a white car come this way.

D: Yeah, a white car travelin' north on East 16th St. Yeah.

B: I believe it - I'm not sure it was, it was that way or this way here, but you know I mean I caught 'em pretty close. I didn't see'em turn.

D: It either, it either came north on 16th St. or east on Lafeyette St. an' made a turn, left into East 16th St. headed north. Is that right?

B: Yes.

D: All right. Then you saw this white car. Yes.

B: Well, you see, now like I wasn't lookin up that way, like they were cruisin'.

D: Yeah

B: I didn't catch'em comin' around the corner, so uh, the guy, you know uh, it was, I think it was a white, uh, at first I thought it was a white Pontiac or a white Chevy at first.
Umm

B: I didn't take a good look at it.

D: All right.

B: It went down this way

D: Did you see how many persons there were in the car? Did you notice that? If you didn't, an' I only want the truth now.

B: I knew they were colored at first. See I didn't think anything about it because I know two colored cops who drive around together.

D: Yeah, you knew they were colored

B: Yeah

D: All right

B: So, uh, Bradley says to me who was that, so I says just a couple of colored guys. You know what I mean.

B: Yeah

B: So he kept goin' by the door. So now, I was still standin' on the corner, an', let's see, it musta been about four or five minutes now I'm standin there.

D: Yeah

B: An', uh, I'm standin right here on the corner

D: Yeah

B: Where's that other picture?

MOHL: Over here. This one here, right Al?

B: Yeah

D: Yeah

B: I was stanin' right here under this tree, right on the corner.

D: Yeah

MOHL: That would be this corner right here

D: Yeah

B: An' the car came up the street this way.

D: Car came back up, the care came west on Lafeyette St. Yes.

B: An I was on that corner there, right here

D: Yes

B: An' I looked right in the car

D: Yeah

B: An' the one right in the passenger seat, a colored man looked at me.

D: Yeah

B: Like he, he glanced, you know I, I didn't see his, his face cause I seen a brown hat, an' it looked like uh, a black barrel or somethin' between his legs. An' it coulda been a, a rifle or a shot gun or anythin. You know what I mean. Or a

D: Yeah

MOHL: Maybe a (shovel).

D: An'uh, he, it looked like he had, hold it up in here

B: Yeah. He was holdin' it between his legs

D: All right, all right. Yeah

B: An' see they were goin' real slow. Maybe they took that corner at five miles an hour. O.K.

MOHL: They made a right turn on, on East 16th at that time. Is that right?

They made a

D: They made another right turn

B: Yeah

MOHL: Now they came down Lafeyette an' made a right turn into East 16th

D: Yeah

Soe, in other words, the passenger was closest to you.

B: Yeah, the passenger was closest to me

D: Yeah

B: An' uh, I think there was somebody sittin' in the back seat cause I seen uh, a black figure, you know, black hair. I thought it was a woman or somethin'.

D: Yeah

Unintelligible

D: Yeah

B: Well, an' then uh, like they just cruise aroun' the corner real slow an' I think nothin' of it.

D: Yeah

B: You don't mind do you

MOHL: No, no go ahead. Help yourself

D: No, you can smoke

B: So I walked off, over to Bradley. He says who was that, you know. I said some colored guys in a car.

D: Yeah, yeah

B: Now I walked all the way down, all the way down in here to Franklin St. Now down there they got trucks an' stuff

D: Yeah. Down on Franklin St. Yes.

B: An' I was lookin' at the vans there - two pickup trucks there. I was lookin' at the pick-up trucks.

D: Yeah

B: An' uh. I musta stood down there about five minutes lookin' around. They had a telephone number, you know an address where you get in touch with the owner of the truck. You know.

D: Yeah

B: I walked all the way back up an' I talked to Bradley. I said what's a matter. So he says I can't get in. So I says, uh well if you're gonna take too long, you know, forget about the thing, the hell with it. So he says no let me try one more time. I says all right.

D: Yes

B: An' I walk back on that corner

D: Right to this corner here?

B: Yeah

D: All right. That's at the corner of Lafeyette an' East 16th St.-the north-east corner of Lafeyette an' East 16th, under the tree again. Right.

B: Yeah

D: Yeah

B: So, uh, I stood there a few minutes, maybe about fifteen minutes went by altogether

D: Yeah

B: An' I, I walked over to Bradley an' I said say listen I'm gonna go down for a pack of cigarettes, an' he says I don't care. I said I only had one left.

D: Yeah

B: So I started walkin' down towards the Lafeyette Bar

D: Yeah

B: An' uh...

Do you have the uh, the other pictures, the older pictures of the street?

D: Yeah, we have one here.

I don't know it's too..............

MOHL: Charlie cut, he probably cut it off. See we took photos yesterday but we cut'em before uh, the grill. We figured it might mean

(simultaneous talk)

D: You started walking back along Lafeyette St. in an easterly direction towards East 18th St. an' the Lafeyette Bar. Right?

B: Yeah

D: Yes. Then what happened?

B: __________tree. I got aroun' in this area_____________somehwere in this general area here.

D: Yes

MOHL: Here, here, this one fits the description. I guess that's right in here.

D: That's further, you gotta be up somewhere in here, up near Caola's drivin shop. Yeah an' what happened.

B: Then I heard two, I think they were shots.

D: Yeah

B: So uh, at first, uh, I thought, uh at first I though of, I thought it was uh, somebody banging on a drum or somethin'. You know may be they had a band down there.

D: Yeah

B: But I stopped an' I lit up a cigarette.

D: An' then?

B: I walked just a little bit farther an' I heard two more shots.

D: Yeah

B: So I know that they were, had to be gun shots cause I didn't think that they had a band up there.

D: Yeah

B: So I figured, well maybe I better leave, you know.

D: Yeah

B: An' then I figured well maybe I better take a walk down the bar,the hell with it. You know, for the hell of it.

D: Yeah

B: So I started walkin' down the street

D: Towards the Lafeyette Grill

B: An' I was just comin' outta here-right around these windows here. I was approachin' from there.

MOHL: In other words you were actually to the building that the Lafeyette Grill is situated in. Right?

B: Yeah

MOHL: Unintelligible

B: Well not yet. I'm still walkin'

MOHL: He was already adjoining the building, but on the other end. Right? Where nothing is. All right
In other words the rear of the building that houses the Lafeyette Bar. In other words, right about here. Can you look on this photo, see this is the Lafayette Grill. This is the back of the building. Yeah.

B: I see a white car parked, right about in this, right about in here.

D: In other words, you're indicatin' near the side door of the building on the corner of Lafayette an' East 18th. You aware of that. In other words on the Lafeyette St. side of the Lafayette Grill there's a rear door to the tavern an' then there's another door that leads to the apartment upstairs.

B: Yeah

D: It was parked near there, in that vicinity, a white dodge, Right.

B: Well I don't know if it was a Dodge

D: Oh well a white car. Allright. I'm not tryin' to put words in your mouth.

MOHL: He said (unintelligible)

(simultaneous talk)

D: I want you to tell it like you remember. O.K.

An then______car

(simultaneous talk)

MOHL: Let's just, I wonder if, before he goes further - O.K. - can we ascertain if this was in fact the car that you saw travelin' aroun' prior to

B: I thought it was

MOHL: Now you thought it was

B: I thought it was

D: You thought it was the same car that you had seen earlier crusin' around. That right?

B: Yeah

D: All right. Now when you saw this car, parked there, was it parked out a little ways from the curb?

B: It was out about a couple of feet.

D: All right, It was out a little.

B: It wasn't parked properly.

D: It wasn't parked properly.

MOHL: Which way was it facing, do you recall?

B: A little uh, slanted towards the road, you know what I mean.

MOHL: I mean well it was parked on the right side of the street facing the right way or

D: On the same side as the tavern a little way from the curb

(simultaneous talk)

MOHL: O.K.


All right. Headin' towards East 16th St. facin' toward East 16th St. Is that right? Allright now, just for one moment, when you saw this car was there anyone in it?

B: No.

D: No one in the car. All right you can continue now. Now you're near the back of the building, you're walkin' up towards the tavern an' you see this white car parked away from the curb headin' towards East 16th St. Now what' s the next thing that happened? Best as you can recall.

(transmission in backgorund)

B: See from uh, two men came aroun' the corner

D: Two men came aroun' the corner. Will you describe these men as best you can.

B: Well, one was a little taller than the other one.

D: Yeah

B: I can't say exactly how tall.

D: Yeah. Were they white or colored?

B: They were colored.

D: Both colored. That correct?

B: Yes

D: All right. Tell me in your own words just what happened when you saw them...whether they were running, walking, everything that you can recall.

B: Now they were walkin' fast

D: Yeah

B: An' the shorter man...

MOHL: Well you, do want to say anything more about them as far as if he knew `em or not or you just want him go by description right now.

D: Yeah, now let's get the description right now

D: Shorter man...

B: Was wearing a white sport jacket

D: Yeah

B: I know he had on a vest, dark coat an' a vest, an black pants,

D: Coat open?

B: Yes his coat was open

D: Dark vest, black pants. Did you recognize this man?

B: I, I thought I knew him. I thought uh, he was some colored man.

D: You, were you later shown a photograph of a man?

MOHL: Now before we go any further I think that uh....

B: Well let me finish

MOHL: I'm sorry

D: All right. Go ahead an' then we'll...

MOHL: O.K. Let him go.

B: Well this is what I actually thought. I thought I knew him an' I kept walkin'. I thought at first they were a couple of detectives, cause one, the shorter one was swinging a shotgun or something, it looked like a shotgun.

D: Yeah

B: An' the, the , the taller one, I believe he had a pistol in his hand.

D: Yeah

At this time

B: I realize like, then I realize

.....comin towards 'em....

B: Yeah. They were laughin', you know talkin' loud an' then...

D: Yeah

B: ...an' I thought that I had seen this one man, I thought it was Rubin Carter.

D: All right. Was that the short one with the white jacket?

B: Yes

D: Yeah

B: An' uh, I realized that they weren't colored detectives.

D: Yeah

B: So I turned aroun' an uh, ran up the block.

D: Now takin' this photograph here, this is the corner. Even though this car is blockin' your view, will you indicate roughly where you were when they came aroun' the corner. Can you see it in this photo?

B: Ehh, they came like, one was walkin' close to the building, one was farther out.

D: Yeah

B: They spun aroun' there, they were laughin', talkin' loud and I seen `em back here an I kept walkin'.

D: Yeah

B: Then when we got aroun'this general area here I realized that it wasn't uh...

D: In other words, at one point, at one point you were approximately 10 to 15 feet away from em.

B: Yeah

D: In other words, roughly 10 to 15 (before you) an' as they approach you, you realize, you turn an' you started running west on Lafeyette St.

B: Yes

D: did they say anything to you as you ran?

B: Not that I remember

(Transmission in Background)

D: You - were you scared?

B: Yes

D: All right now. Where did you run? Ehh, now ehh, before we go any further, you described the one man as having a white jacket, a black vest, an' black pants.

B: Yes

D: Can you recall, you said the other man was a little taller.

B: Yes

D: Can you recall roughly what the other man was wearing?

B: Uh, I think they were, uh brown clothes or dark clothes - some dark color.

D: Dark colored clothes. Now could you say it was, he had a jacket on or not a jacket or...

B: He mighta been wearing a jacket.

D: He might have been wearing a jacket.

B: Yeah

D: You're not certain

B: Not now. I'm not certain

D: Now, in so far as face, if I show you a photograph - I show you a photograph now of John Artis. Now this makes him appear quite light because of the photo.

B: It's possible. It is possible, but, uh, I'm not actually sure.

D: Possible, but you're not actually sure this was the second man. Now how about - do you have a photograph(mumble)

MOHL: The point is this, do you know Rubin Carter or not. I mean from prior, prior to this incident have you seen Rubin Carter?

B: Uh, no. Prior to this on the street?

MOHL: Yeah. Anywheres...

Do you know Rubin Carter?

MOHL: ....I mean do you know Rubin Carter when you see him. I mean can...

B: Well, I know Rubin Carter. Yeah. Yeah sure.

MOHL: Well, I mean can you tell, uh, the Lt. Whether that was Rubin Carter or wasn't Rubin Carter?

B: Well it was Rubin Carter as far as I know or his brother (laughs)

D: In other words, in other words this individual that you saw coming aroun' the corner...

MOHL: The point I'm trying to make is (cough) is, we're trying to determine, is it a stranger that you have to look at a mug shot to try to determine, ehh, ehh, match it up to the face you saw or is it actually in fact someone that you know. You know what I mean Al?

B: Yeah. Yeah.

In other words Al

B: ...Well I know

....Who is the man that came aroun'

B: Rubin Carter

You knew

D: There's no questions in your mind that Rubin Carter...

See this is you're still, uh, shaky an' (unintelligible)

B: Oh well you see when the police came back with `em he was dressed the same way an' everything You know what I mean? So in my mind I know it had to be him. It, it was the same person I had seen come around the corner.

MOHL: That's it.

D: Let me say this to you. Uh, may I ask you a question Ray. Did Rubin Carter have on a white jacket or a black jacket?

Well, he had a light jacket when he was picked up, after they picked him up.

D: He did have a lighter jacket on.

It was uh, it wasn't a solid. It was very light sport type, it had salt an' pepper, a little pattern.

D: Yeah. All right now you saw this man in the detective bureau later on that, first you saw him when you had returned to the scene.

B: Yes

D: Then you saw him in the detective bureau later

B: Yes

D: Now can you honestly say that this was the man that you saw runnin' aroun' the corner?

B: Yes

D: There's no question about that. Now in regard to John Artis, the other one, you likewise saw him. In your mind, can you honestly say that that was the man that was with him, with Rubin Carter.

B: Yes

D: In other words, in your mind it was definitely Rubin Carter an' John Artis who came aroun' the corner on that morning.

B: Yes

D: All right. Now let's get back to your actions, uh, right after you turned an' started runnin. You ran up Lafeyette St.

B: Then I ran in the alley way.

Transmission in background

(unintelligible speech)

MOHL: Well I just like to ask, ehh, a couple a points that I want a clear answer. At, at this time do you know where uh Dexter was?

B: He was still up on the corner

MOHL: As far as you know

B: Yeah

There's no chance he mighta came down the street behind you, maybe.

B: It, there is a chance because I didn't go all the way up aroun' the corner. When I came back he was comin' down.

He was comin' down...

B: Yeah
...an' you were goin' back at uh, the (unintelligible)

B: Yeah. But I was excited so, you know what I mean. I had run all the way up an' find him by the door, an' he was on uh, tha, that street.

MOHL: You mean actually-do you know that we spoke to Dexter.

B: Yeah. I don't know what you spoke to him about.

MOHL: All right that's right. But what I'd like to know is, what did he tell you after this incident. Be-because then we know that he did have a conversation right?

B: Well I says uh, I says uh, there's been a shooting down the bar. I said you better split because there's gonna be police all over the area. An' I told him, I says I gotta stay now because see when I came down the window here was a broad lookin' out the window.:

Yeah
Umm, hum.

B: So she seen me an' I said like I gotta return. If I leave, You know what I mean, they're gonna say I was involved in it. So the only thing I can do is stay an' call the, call the police. So he says, well, don't do that . So I says, look get the fuck outta here. Why don't you go man. You know what I mean. He says I'll wait aroun' for you.:

D: There was a broad lookin' outta this window here.

B: Yeah. Yeah. I think it was right here.

D: Yeah. All right.

B: So I, like I told them, like cut out, cause, you know. There was a shootin'.

So he says uh, did you, uh, he said, did you see the car. So I says yeah. So he says hey Bello, uh, who you think was in it. I says Rubin Carter. So he says, that's who I think it was too.

MOHL: At that time was there any mention of the other name, or just Rubin at that time.

B: Rubin Carter. He says yeah, there was somebody else with em'.

MOHL: Did he mention any, anybody else to you by name though. You know I don't wanna et it confused with what he told me. I just wanna see if you can recall what he told you.

B: It was uh, it was a very fast conversation.

MOHL: All right. O.K. If that's all you recall then that's fine.

B: It mighta not even been in them words, but tha's...

MOHL: I, well naturally we would understand that.

D: all right now. You turned an' you ran west on Lafeyette St.

B: Yeah. I ran in the alley.

D: An you saw Dexter_____, you ran in the alley first an' waited for this car to pull away.

Wee, we, we're goin' a little bit ahead of him.

D: All right. Go head.

B: First I ran in the alley way...

D: Yeah

B: ...an' I heard somebody. I just go to the end of the alley way an' turned aroun' an' when I saw the truck `ere or somethin' parked there an' I heard a car like peeling out, you now, the curb or somethin'...

D : Yeah

B: ...so I ran to the front of the alley way...

D : Yeah

B. ...right over here.

MOHL: Were you all the way down by Caola's again you ran you think, ehh, was it in between houses or what comin' out...

B: Uh, theres' one picture in there that is the spot.

MOHL: Where's that. I don't we have any.

You may be missing

D: Double or just hooked together.

MOHL: We may not on these photos, `ats the only think

B: I want the one that you had_____

MOHL: The one that I had

Right here

MOHL: Here's the one that I had here

No it's a double, it's a double Al wants. It's on the latest
Yeah, the one that you had

MOHL: They're all mixed in by now. It's gotta be up there then if it's any place.

Look through those

Bob look through them photos. I think there's one photo where there's two photos hooked together, doubled over

MOHL: Even Al here thinks so too. However, wait a minute, have....
It was right here.

MOHL: Yeah here's hooked together but that goes to, that goes to the corner. All right. I have to have one__________

B: You got a inside shot or somethin' like lookin' down

MOHL: See these are all of the tavern

We saw the one before, right here

Here it is

B: Yeah, that's

Tha'ts the alley

MOHL: Where is it, on the second_____well it, it wasn't___________acutally to the right of Caola's but by the house.

That would be right here. You see the, on the other picture here.

D: In other words...

Here it is right here

D: ...it's an alley which is east of Caola's along side a house which is just to the east Caola's

MOHL: That's right. See this truck here, this truck is the same as this...

D: An' you ran down the alley

MOHL: ....white fender here in this photo...

Yeah

MOHL: ...so that would be____house right here.

D: An' you heard a car peeling out.

B: Yes

D: Then what happened?

B: I ran to the front of the house...

D : Yeah

B: ...right here...

D: Yeah

B: ...right here...

D: Yeah

B: ...an' they, like slowed down an' jammed on their brakes. The back of the car lit up...

D: Yeah

B: ...an' as soon as they passed me I seen the guy who I had seen in the beginning. I believe it was him, as he turned his head-I mean like jammed on the brake, but I guess they changed their mind. You know they just kept goin'

MOHL: So that the back of the car

D: You mean you think, you believe at first they were stopped an' lookin' for you.

B: Yes

: Transmission in background

D: You seen the guy you had seen before...

B: In the same car.

D: ...but then they appeared to change their mind, they kept goin'

B: Yeah

D: Right

B: They only hit their brakes just to slow down a little

D: Yeah

B: Stepped on the gas. When they jammed on their brakes I seen the back of the car an' uh, I believe it was a , a Pontiac and I said the number quick in my mind but as fast as I said it I forgot it. But I...

MOHL: You know what kinda plate it was, uh?
Yeah. Well...

You just don't recall the number. Do you remember...

B: Actually I believe it was uh orange letters with blue background. When a cop came I said to him, he said was it an outta town plate, so I said it was either uh, it could been uh, New York of Pennsylvania. I wasn't definitely sure.

D: Yeah.

B: He said do you remember any of the numbers. I said no because I knew he was gonna grill me about it an' I knew I said it but forgot the fuckin' numbers.

D: Yeah

B: An they just kept, an I noticed the back of the car was tapered out

D: Well Al, from the outside, ehh, do you have photos that are?

Uhh, they should be in here.

MOHL: ehh, here's the front of it. Hey wait a minute, wait a minute.

Does he have the front of he has the whole four?

MOHL: Here's the side, here's the back. OK, let me show Al the photos that we have on the vehicle (on any of `em)

D: Al let me just say to you Al that no question, that this is the car that was returned to the scene later.

MOHL: This is all the views that were taken, front, side, (diagonal), rear view

B: Yeah. This is definitely the, the back of the car.

MOHL: Umm-humm. You can identify, can identify the back really.

Yeah. You start.

D: You identify the back of this car which bears New York registration 5Z4741, even though you didn't remember the number.

D: The back of the car appears to be exactly as the car that you saw pull away from there an' you saw earlier cruisin' aroun'.

B: Yes

D: All right, Al, let's come back now to the point. You ran up the street, you ran in the alley way.

MOHL: I'm sorry. Hold it one minute please.
transmission in background -

D: These are photos from four angles of the same car that you saw - four different angles. It was brought back to the scene with Rubin Carter an', an' John Artis

MOHL: Anything else _____________

B: Umm, no just the back of it, the back, I mean I don't remember the plate number

MOHL: All right. If you don't remember you don't remember.
(simultaneous talk)

D: Now, now we have you running up the alley, you hear rubber peel, come out, see the car slow down, see what appeared to be the same man in there, the car slowed down, the back lit up, you saw them, tail lights from the out in, an' then they appeared to change their mind, then kept going. Now what did you do there after. Ran into Bradley

B: No. I ran down to the bar.

D: But hadn't you seen Bradley at that point-you said somethin' about splittin' up

B: No

D: That was later

B: Yeah. That was about five minutes later

D: All right. First you ran down to the bar

B: Yeah

B: Right

B: Looked in the door

D: Now(cough) let me say this to you-in regard to anything that might have happened in the bar...

B: Yeah

D: ...uh, I am obliged to tell you by law that you don't have to mention anything that might incriminate you. You understand what I mean. You can tell me everything else, assuming something did happen. Now, uh, you know I have suspicion, but it's my duty to tell you that you don't have to discuss, you don't have to tell me anything about it. But you can tell me everything else. Do you follow me?

B : Yes

D: In other words, I don't want you to tell me anything that will incriminate you. This is my duty. You understand what I mean? You can tell me....

MOHL: The only reason I'm smiling is because you've advised him, but I probably uh, violated those privileges. Do you know what I mean, myself.

D: Therefore, we don't want to violate those privileges, we want to abide by the law. You know the new decision. You understand what I mean?

B: Right

D: That no man can incriminate himself is the recent decision of the court.

B: Well I don't intend to commit myself of anything. Uh...

D: All right now. However, you can tell me everything that happened, everything that happened an' I tell you this -I'm not gonna ask you any questions...

B: Yeah

D: ...about that an' you know what I'm talking about. Is that correct? All right now let's continue.

Tell the honest truth

D: Now you went back to the bar.

B: Yeah

D: An' when you went into the bar what happened?

B: I didn't go in yet

D: Oh, you didn't go in. What happened?

B: I looked in the door...

D: Yeah.

B: ...an' I could see, you know like somethin' went down.

B: Yeah.

B: I went back to Bradley an' I told `im, you know what I mean...

D: You better get outta here. I gotta stay, the girl saw me upstairs.

B: Yeah.

D: But, words to the effect that it looked like trouble in there. Right?:

There's been shooting.

B: Yeah.

D: All right. Now what happened? Now you went back to the bar...

B: We gonna go through the whole bar scene?

B: Just briefly. We don't have to go into detail. The main thing I want to know, what happened when you sent in the bar.

Exactly?

D: Of course. No, not exactly. You can eliminate certain phases. You know what I'm talkin' about. But what happened. You went in...

B: Yeah.

D: Did you get in first?

B: Yeah, as far as I know.

D: Now was it true what you told me-that you went to the woman.

B: Yeah. Well she was, uh, there was a man sitting at the bar, but I could see that he was like uh, he didn't know whether if he was comin' or goin.

D: Yeah. All right

B: But before I got a chance to say anything to him he just got up an' an' andered off.

D: right.

B: At, at this time I was, I was by the woman an' I looked up an'he was there.

D: Right.

B: An' uh, when I looked up again all I see was him walkin' away like staggerin' away. I guess he went into the back or somethin. I don't know where the hell he went.

D: Let me show you a sketch of the tavern. This is the East 18th St side. Now from the infomration we have received the woman was laying roughly here, on the floor.

B: Yeah

D: So this is the Lafeyette St. door. The woman was laying roughly here. There was one man sitting in the stool here with his head on the bar. He didn't move.

B: Yeah

D: Another guy was strollin' aroun' in here. In this area. When the girl come in was hangin' on to this pole. He had been shot in the head but he was staggering aroun' the place.

B: Yeah.

D: there, there was another bar tender laying on the floor back here...

B: Yeah

D...: whether you saw him or not I don't kow. All right now you went to the woman.

B: Yeah

D: Then did anyone else appear in the tavern?

B: The girl.

D: The girl. Did she come in the side door?

B: Yeah

D: An' did you say somethin' to her?

B: Yeah. I said you better stay outside, but uh...

D: All right. Then what happened, as close as you could recall?

B: She didn't stay outside. She walked in the bar.

D: She came in. All right.

B: An uh, fuckin screams.

D: ll right now.

B: She went out

D: While you were in there, the telephone is back here. Did you got to the phone an' telephone the police?

B: Yeah

D: Somethin' about there's been some shooting here. Everybody's dead or words to that effect.

B: Yeah. Bu I, I...Yeah, but uh, I was a little fucked up then, uh, you know what mean (a girl like that )

D: No you were naturally quite excited.

B: Yeah

D: Ther's no question about this. You walked into a place where there's uh, four people shot. You'r re gonna be excited. Hey, you're not gonna be compos . Even a cop, the top experienced police officers who walked on the scene-yes know, it's not, it's not like you're seein' one guy there. You walked in an see four people shot. Anybody's gonna get a little excited. But this is nothin' to be ashamed of.

B: Yeah well.

D: You understand. All right, now tell me what happened then?

B: Uh, I looked in my pockets for change. I didn't even have a fuckin', I had some quarters. I didn't have no dimes.

D: Yeah

B: So I, let me see what else is happenin', uh, the other guy, you know, like he wasn't in my memory anymore. I didn't see him aroun' so, you know, fuck him. You know.

D: Yeah

B: So I went behind the bar an' I seen that there was money thrown aroun' an' uh, the guy was like twisted up back there. I knew he was dead. So uh, (I went to look at) the cash register. The cash register was open. There was money laying on the floor. So I, uh, I tood a dime out.

D: Yeah

B: So while I was standin' there I had took some of it. I took I took about-I don't know, it was, it wasn't very much. It was about, it was singles. I took some singles.

D: All right

B: I'll tell you the truth.

D: All right. You're tellin' me the truth now an' you're, you're, you're tellin me this information. Now let me say this to you Al-an'this is important. I firmly believe that these men went in there simply for the reason of revenge because there had been a shooting earlier. All right. Now listen to me Al, listen carefully. I firmly believe that these men didn't go anywhere near the register, because they had no thoughts, they just wanted to get even.

B: Yeah.

D: You understand what I mean. Now therefore, it's my belief, I many be wrong, if you're tellin' the truth, you stay with it. I don't wanna change your story. It's my belief that they never went near that register. Now is it possible that in your haste, some of the money fell to the floor?

B: No

D: In other words, the money was on the floor.

B: Well let me tell you just the way I seen it.

B: Yeah. All right

B: When I actually came aroun' the bar, the register was open...

D: The register was open

B: ...an' there was money laying all over the, well like thrown aroun' the floor, on, by the cash register.

D: All right.

B: I took a dime. I figured in my mind that uh, I knew that uh, there was no robbery.

D: Yeah

B: You know what I mean?

D: Yeah

B: But I said to myself, if I, I should clean the fuckin' place out. An' then, you know on second though, I said, well, fuck it. I'll take a little bit of spendin', a little pin money. I, I boasted about, uh, to my estimation it was only about may be 25 singles or somethin' like that.

D: All right

B: You know what I mean?

D: Yeah, all right.

B: An' I put it in my pocket, so I uh, no I didn't call the police yet

D: Yeah

B: I went outside an' I said to Bradley, I said here. He says what's this. So I say well uh, I said the bar won't be needin' it anymore. Take the fuckin' money.

D: All right. You gave him the money, to Bradley.

B: Yeah. So he says all right. So he says what are you gonna do. I said I, I'll call the police. I figured, like uh, I was gonna, I figure you know I was gonna put the fuckin' shit back. (simultaneous talk) You know what I mean. So I said, well fuck it, I already gave it to him an', an', uh...

MOHL: Actually you never knew what the sum was, how much money it was.

B: No. But I didn't....

MOHL: You gave it to him

B: Yes. I know. Uh, it couldn't of been very much. Believe, if it was very much. I'm levelin' with you.

MOHL: All right

(simultaneous talk)

B: So, uh, yeah, so I figured if I leave the bar an' there's this woman an' she's bleedin', an' the other guy, he's fucked up. So I figure, uh, you know how people are, they're not just gonna walk down to that bar. So I figured if I call the police maybe they'll get there, maybe they'll save somebody's life. You know what I mean.

MOHL: Right. Right.

B: So I called police

D: All right

B: But uh...

D: You called the police.

B: I called the operator, an' I said give me the police.

D: Right. All right.

B: I don't think she believed me. She, cause she asked me - an' this is the truth - like she asked me what street was it on. An' I've been there before but I was a little fucked up. I didn't know what street it really was an' I went out the front door an' I looked. Now you know - this is really the truth - I looked, an' there's a street sign right down the corner, but I didn't even notice the fuckin' street sign. So I went back in an' I says I don't know what street. I said it's the Lafeyette uh, Bar an' Grill. You know, or somethin' like this. So she says all right.

D: All right. Now the police then came

B: Yeah

D: An' there was a lot a confusion

B: Yeah

D: Did the police later bring a car back with men in it?

B: Yes

D: Was that the same car that you had seen earlier?

B: Yes. It was the same car an' the same people I saw.

D: An' the same two men were in that car that you had seen earlier?

B: Yes

D: Is that correct?

B: Yes

D: There's no question in your mind

B: No question about it

D: All right. You're absolutely certain. Alfred Bello, that on the morning of June 17, 1966, sometime between midnight an' 2:30 a.m. you first saw a car coming down Lafeyette St. while you were standing on the corner...

B: Yes

D: ...of Lafeyette an' East 16th St. You're certain that later on it came by about five miles an hour, west on Lafeyette St. an' turned right into East 16th St. headed north, with a man on the right that looked like he had a rifle...

B: Yeah.

D: ...or a shotgun or somethin' like that between his legs.

B: Yeah

D: An the other man drivin'

B: Yes

D: Then later on as you were walkin' down you heard shots then you lit a cigarette an walked further. You were 10 to 15 feet away from these persons when they came aroun' the corner...

B: They were laughin' an...

D: ...laughin' an jokin', one carryin' what looked like a shot gun an the other one carryin' what looked like a postol in his hand. There is no questions in your mind that one of these men was Rubin Carter an the other man was John Artice. Now the reason why I say to you is that they later brought back Rubin Carter and John Artice in the same car, the police did, an' at that time, you were sure that these were the 2 men tht you saw comin' out of the tavern on that morning.

B: Well I can honestly say that it was definitley the 2 men in that car

Let me ask you

The 2 men that were in the car earlier an you saw when they brought back.

MOHL: Well, while he's while, while he's so honest at this point as far he's, he wants to relate everything, maybe he would want to explain to you why he didn't make identification at that time. Maybe you would want to...

B: I was, I was scared at the time.

D: You were scared.

B: See uh, lik I'm no fuckin' good an I've been in, in a lotta jails, an I know that everybody idolizes Rubin Carter.

D: Right

B: So I thought if anything should happen, even if I should want uh (the county) I would have nothin but, to be provoked an fuckin' harrassed.

MOHL: This is why you lied about the money here. Right.

B: Yeah

D: Now have you been harrassed by anyone since that time or bothered or warned not to say anythin'?

B: The day I got out of, one of the days when I was down at the police station, I think it was the same day that I got cut loose...

D: Yeah

B: I went into the M & R

D: Yeah

B: An there was a girl an a, a, a, colored girl an colored man sittin there

D: Yeah

B: Now I know so many people that momentarily their, their names might slip my mind. Not that I want it but that's the way it is, you know like I see so many fuckin people you know.

D: Yeah

B: An they said hi, so I said back, so uh, one of them said, weren't you mixed up in the Lafeyette Grill thing. So me like a fuckin' jerk I said yeah. You know. So the guy says you know who this is, he pointed to the girl. So I says no. So he says well this is uh, Rubin Carter's cousin. Now, they said what actually happened, so I says well uh I think he had shot some people up there. You know, so the girl turned to the guy, like in a converstaion an she says uh I know he was actin kinda funny because he ws talkin' about that. You know an he hasn't been too bright you know. So I figure maybe I better split, you know what I mean, so I turned around an walk the fuck out.

MOHL: Hum, would you say ehh when the car came back.

B: Yeah

MOHL: When they, the police brought the car back after the shooting, well at this time you knew, you knew it was Carter right. I mean everybody there knew it was Rubin Carter. Right?

B: Yeah

MOHL: But before the car was brought back there was still no doubt in your mind that he walked up there, that you knew him.

B: No there was no doubt, just that the car confirmed it. You know what I mean, it was, there couldn't be no fuckin', you know what I mean, another car in the area with the same clothes an_______the same person, I seen the guy you know in Bordentown, you know what I mean. Like he came there on uh, a exhibition, a boxing exhibition, an I don't like boxing, I'll tell ya where it's at, but I don't usually stay for them. I walked in an I didn't like it, walked the fuck back out. You know what I mean cuz he don't appeal to me that much

D: All right now let me say this to you, you see the precautions we're takin', As we move on there will be more precautions taken.

B: Well

D: Now just to give you an idea of the trouble I am going through in order to protect you.

B: Can I say somethin'?

Yes

B: Now you know that uh, I didn't have to say anthing about this money

D: Right

B: Because I know in my own mind...

D: Right

B: ...you couldn't do anything to me

D: Right

B: You know what I mean. Not even said I gave him some money

D: No of course not

B: I coulda gave him money for a fuckin' cab or somethin

D: Right

B: But he's the main point. See this been playin' on my mind an' I feel like uh, no matter what happens you're still gonna bring me to court whether, if I fuckin' lie or tell you the truth.

D: Right

B: So why shouln't they pay for a fuckin' crime. If this was me I woulda been hung a long time ago...

D: You're absolutely right. Look...

B: ...an this is what the (family____) You know_____

D: ... look, look let me say this to you, let me say this to you Al. There are laws of man an there are laws of God

B: Yes

D: If these guys did it they not only violated the law of man they violated the law of God which says thou shalt not kill.

B: ( I know that' right)

D: You understand what I mean. An' that's one thing that no man specially it's a different thing if somebody's gonna fight an' they got bad blood against 'em. The guy double-crosses 'em. But here's people standin innocently drinkin' beer and mindin' their own business

B: Yeh

D: An you wanna know

END OF TRANSCRIPT

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